Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post here for mechanical and engine topics such as fuel issues, transmission problems, rough idle, exhaust, electrical issues, etc

Moderators: GRNSHRK, ron, bfons

Post Reply
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

1981 BMW 635CSI Euro - M90 5 speed
Car is running Motronic 1.x with a 735 ecu / MAF into an enclosed CAI / 24lb injectors 2.5 bar FPR

Last summer the car was parked due to a misfire and sputtering like it was running on 4 of the 6 cylinders. Decided to tear it down and re-do it correctly. The PO was a hairlip.

Took the Intake, runners, valve train cover and throttle body off the car. I fully disassembled all parts and pieces. A shop dunked everything, soda blasted and powder coated all the pieces. Bought all new gaskets and bits and bobs for the throttle body, intake runners, and valve train cover.

ICV was cleaned and is in good shape
TPS is brand new
All hoses and vacuum lines are brand new and clamped correctly
New 24lb injectors that I fabbed into the early fuel rail (made pigtail hoses etc.)
Rebuild the FI EVI connectors (were all dried and cracked)
New plugs gapped at .032 / rotor / cap / wires (checked firing order and cap orientations - all good)
Adjusted the valves / replaced the duckbill gasket & o ring seal because it was hemorrhaging oil (major PITA)
Fuel relay is good
Main relay is good
All fuses replaced
Battery is at 100% charge

Put it all back together and she is getting fuel to the FPR and beyond but will try to start, stutter, burp, fart and rinse and repeat. Will not run. I unplugged the MAF / ICV / Cold start injector and TPS - same result. Did continuity tests on all of those and came out good.

So, what the faack? Did these early cars have crank sensors on the bell housing? I don't think that would cause this but I am no expert. I checked power to the coil and to the plugs - all good.

I was certain that the issue was bad plugs and wires plus bad injectors. When I dug in to her, I found 2 injectors that were 14lbs. @ 2-3 ohm and the rest were 24lb. @ 14-15ohms. They were in piss poor shape.

Ideas/ thoughts / expertise / tips & tricks are very much appreciated? I have exhausted my mechanical prowess on this one.

Yes I have the Bentley Manual and yes I have factory the service manual. Neither have pin pointed the problem.
Last edited by euromaniac on Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
hornhospital
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: Silverhill, AL
Contact:

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by hornhospital »

Sounds like low fuel pressure to me. The firing but then sputtering is a lean condition indicator.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

I have a fuel pressure gauge/tool. Should I test just behind the FPR, at the fuel rail return, or the cold start valve? Could air bubbles/pockets cause this? I did not find any literature on how to burp the system.

I did unhook the line from the fuel rail at the FPR and turned on the ignition. Fuel went everywhere but I did not have the gauge on it. It was an impromptu gut check test.
User avatar
hornhospital
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: Silverhill, AL
Contact:

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by hornhospital »

Test behind the FPR.

Just because it pumps at essentially zero pressure doesn't mean it will generate 2.5bar when the system is closed. I may be fine, but you won't know until you test it. I hope it IS something as simple as a weak pump, since that's easy to change.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

I am going to do the timed test tomorrow as my I don't have the right fittings for the guage. I'll just let her run into a jug and measure the amount. Crude, but gets it done. Also, seems I am getting no juice to the coil but main relay is good. May not be starting due to really weak spark.

Ran out of time for the evening so back to it in the AM.
emac
Posts: 178
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:57 am
Location: SC

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by emac »

I had a FPR go bad on an e30 one time. It would only run with lots of throttle as the FPR was stuck closed and the fuel pressure was too high. Very very rough and rich smelling.
Pasocb
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:14 am
Location: Paso Robles CA

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by Pasocb »

euromaniac wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:24 pm 1981 BMW 635CSI Euro - M90 5 speed
Car is running Motronic 1.x with a 735 ecu / MAF into an enclosed CAI / 24lb injectors 2.5 bar FPR

Last summer the car was parked due to a misfire and sputtering like it was running on 4 of the 6 cylinders. Decided to tear it down and re-do it correctly. The PO was a hairlip.

Took the Intake, runners, valve train cover and throttle body off the car. I fully disassembled all parts and pieces. A shop dunked everything, soda blasted and powder coated all the pieces. Bought all new gaskets and bits and bobs for the throttle body, intake runners, and valve train cover.

ICV was cleaned and is in good shape
TPS is brand new
All hoses and vacuum lines are brand new and clamped correctly
New 24lb injectors that I fabbed into the early fuel rail (made pigtail hoses etc.)
Rebuild the FI EVI connectors (were all dried and cracked)
New plugs gapped at .032 / rotor / cap / wires (checked firing order and cap orientations - all good)
Adjusted the valves / replaced the duckbill gasket & o ring seal because it was hemorrhaging oil (major PITA)
Fuel relay is good
Main relay is good
All fuses replaced
Battery is at 1000% charge

Put it all back together and she is getting fuel to the FPR and beyond but will try to start, stutter, burp, fart and rinse and repeat. Will not run. I unplugged the MAF / ICV / Cold start injector and TPS - same result. Did continuity tests on all of those and came out good.

So, what the faack? Did these early cars have crank sensors on the bell housing? I don't think that would cause this but I am no expert. I checked power to the coil and to the plugs - all good.

I was certain that the issue was bad plugs and wires plus bad injectors. When I dug in to her, I found 2 injectors that were 14lbs. @ 2-3 ohm and the rest were 24lb. @ 14-15ohms. They were in piss poor shape.

Ideas/ thoughts / expertise / tips & tricks are very much appreciated? I have exhausted my mechanical prowess on this one.

Yes I have the Bentley Manual and yes I have factory the service manual. Neither have pin pointed the problem.

IIRC, both Motronic 1.0 and 1.1 utilize a crank sensor at the flywheel. Motronic 1.3 utilizes a crank sensor at the harmonic balancer. L-Jet utilizes a pickup in the bottom of the distributor.
1981 635 Hennarot
1980 635 Polaris (Project)
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

FPR is a brand new bosch unit.

The car was but with L-Jet but was converted to Motronic 1 by the PO. Today's focus is the crank sensor. Would this really keep spark from reaching the coil? Does it confuse the ECU to basically go limp? I have a brand new MSD blaster coil I swapped to verify if the coil was bad. Soon after realized that no power was getting to the coil wires.

Have 12 volts at all the injector EVI's though. I am getting fuel and air, but no spark.
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

Got both the speed and reference sensor out of the car. Bench test both on the meter and read 960ohms between pin 1 & 2 - within spec. Between 1 & 3 and 2 & 3 it should read 100,000ohms but I get no reading. I have verified fuel pressure and voltage at the EV1's @ 12 volts static. Under starting conditions, they are pulsing as designed.

Still have no voltage at the coil so I am hoping these sensors are the culprit for a no spark condition. Ohm testing the coil determines it to be in good health.

What else am I missing?
User avatar
hornhospital
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: Silverhill, AL
Contact:

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by hornhospital »

If you have injector pulses and spark, it ISN'T a bad CPS. You would have no injector pulses or firing of the spark plugs if the CPS was bad, since the ECU/DME only fires each when it gets a signal from the CPS that the crank is turning. Likewise the fuel pump. No signal from the CPS= no power to the pump.
Ken Kanne
'84 633CSi "Sylvia"; '85 635CSi "Katja";'85 325e "Hazel Ann"; '95 M3 "Ashlyn"
bpoliakoff
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3312
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: scottsdale, arizona
Contact:

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by bpoliakoff »

Motronic 1.0 takes an 002 ECU period which is correct for that one year only first year Motronic. Are you sure you mean an AFM rather than an MAF? 1.0 with 002 ECU needs needs low impedance injectors which the ones you have aren't and I am thinking thinking you may have a cobbled up mess or Motronic 1.1 which needs a 3.0 bar fpr and could be the problem 1.0 does use 2.5 bar FPR Also 1.1 does not use an MAF which 1.3 does
81 Euro 635 M90 with motronic. Currently under a complete nut and bolt restoration. Pictures at
flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos.
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

It's a MAF system with a later 733/5 motronic ECU. Likely running 1.0. The ECU has a shitty WAR chip from Miller and the higher impedance FI's are correct. I put the 2.5 bar (new) back in vs. the 3.0 bar as this is how I got it and it was tuned this way. The 3.0 bar FPR did cross my mind but I have no way to retune or remap/curve the chip.

Regarding spark. I tested deeper after having false positives first go around. 12 volts at FI injectors. 12 volts at coil. Once I took off the CPS it would not sputter/start and I got no pulse at the FI connectors and no spark at the plugs. Still had 12 volts at coil with ignition on.The CPS has failed but was barely working resulting in sputtering and false positive checks. The impedance test of the CPS tells me it's bad.

Also, the fuel pump was hardwired and comes on with ignition and fuse 16. Like I said, the PO was a hairlip.

The manual talks about a pin the sensor reads and another post talks about how this pin fell off the flywheel. I didn't see an inspection/timing window to verify if the pin is in place. Where do I look?

The new sensors and main relay are on the way. I'll check in once installed and re-tested. Fingers crossed!
Last edited by euromaniac on Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
bpoliakoff
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3312
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: scottsdale, arizona
Contact:

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by bpoliakoff »

1.3 reads off a cogged wheel on the harmonic balancer not the flywheel. If 1.3 A 179 ECU is the way to go with a Mark D'Silva chip and he will make one designed for you. I am running an 002 on my soon to be fired up modified M90. If the ECU won't handle it, guys say it should, 1.3 is how I will go with a 179 ECU and D'Silva chip. To do so will require a 1.3 harness with some light modification and will also do away with the cold start valve. To many horror stories starting to surface about warchip. I do not intend to fork out the bread for a stand alone not thinking it is need for a medium warmed up motor
81 Euro 635 M90 with motronic. Currently under a complete nut and bolt restoration. Pictures at
flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos.
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

That is good info and matches what I was reading over on bimmerforums.com.

Since the reference and speed sensors are in back, it's not 1.3. It's also running a MAF so it is not running 1.1. Everything points to motronic 1.0. The case/ID sticker for the ECU is missing - smh. I was told that it is a early 80's 7 series but that's all I have to go on. It is a 35 pin harness. I have no way to identify this damn thing.

I'm crossing my fingers the ECU is in good health. Regarding standalone, there are options these days and even though the cost is a consideration, it may be worth it. Reliability, tuning, future build etc.

I want to ditch that worthless WAR chip asap. I want to go back to a 6 series ECU for Motronic 1.0 that will run with MAF and 24lb. injectors. Problem is, I don't think that exists as the 002 ECU is designed for low impedance FI's and I was told you cannot insert a custom chip.

Any insights on which ECU married with a quality chip that is actually serviceable for my setup?

This car is a highly optioned Euro. It's already been hacked and I've spent quite a bit of time and money to get it back to square. Aside from some improvements, the car still remains fairly stock.
bpoliakoff
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 3312
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: scottsdale, arizona
Contact:

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by bpoliakoff »

Is the MAF Miller? Shit can it and go back to the correct AFM with an 002 ECU with the low impedance injectors. The Motronic 1.0 was only a year or a bit more production and 002 is the only ECU for it. That is stock 1.0 any Motronic AFM will work. You have to have a base line. If it's 1.1 it shouldn't have an MAF again, unless it's Miller and the car was converted to 1.1Probably a 159 ECU. I am thinking 179 for 1.3. As I said D'Silva for a chip. Problem is 002ECU is not chipable as you said, and you have to go to at least 1.1 My feeling is your chasing your tail. Start from the beginning or at least without the Miller crap.. If it has a Miller it has to be 1.1 at least to take a chip and must have been converted

On my M90 if the 002 won't run it right, I will go right to 1.3 179 ECU and a D'Silva customized to the engine. No reason to go stand alone with 1.3 and talking to D'Silva. He is a chip genius
81 Euro 635 M90 with motronic. Currently under a complete nut and bolt restoration. Pictures at
flickr.com/photos/bertsphotos.
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

The MAF is a BMW OEM peice and I'll have to run the part number to get specifics. I'm not reverting back to ancient technology with AFM, 002 and such. I just spent time and money replacing the entire fuel system and related parts. The car is already on it's way to being a build. I just want it to operate until money is spent on a refresh/upgrade to something other than 188 BHP on the roller. The smart bet is 1.3 and associated harness etc or standalone.

I'll have to do more research on the chip you mentioned. The top contenders are Conforti, Dinan, and D'silva. All have pros and cons but I'll look into what you suggested for sure so thanks!
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

Took a magnifying glass and flashlight to the ECU.

There is a date of 01/85 stamped on one corner of the board.

The other number in very tiny print is
1 268 331 064. From what I understand, the last 3 digits is the unique identifier i.e. 002, 079, 059 etc.

That's all I got. Haven't found any info on a 064 ecu.
User avatar
zinnocoupe
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:57 am
Location: Vancouver BC

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by zinnocoupe »

I'm curious which MAF you are using? Its an OEM BMW Maf?
Image
Image
1979 Euro 635ci no longer a basketcase, just a running rust bucket!
1977 530i Partially restored and running now!
1987 635csi 60K KM Garage Queen
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

It appears to be a German MAF due to the writing but I do not have a discernible part number. The MAF has those stupid security torque screws so I cannot remove it form the housing to verify. Tools on the way from AMZ. I will post back.

--------------

For the rest of this debacle, I think I may have landed on the issue. All sensors and relays are good. ECU has power and ground. I went back through the firing order and plug wire arrangement - check. Took the distributor off and rechecked the rotor for sanity (hard to screw up) - check. Went back through the FI wiring with a noid light - check. Ref and speed sensor brand new. Fuel filter - brand new. Checked voltage and Ohms at all plugs - check. Found out the CTS and the cold start is not working - bad sensor. That is a side note as I live in WA. The cold start is not really needed.

Yesterday, I checked voltage at the fuel pump and got the 11.9-12 volts. Got my new fuel pressure gauge today and checked pressure at the fuel rail where the fuel line installs. I tee'd it off and gave her a crank with the coil wire off. I read just shy of 36lbs (2.5 bar). I turned off the ignition to let it leak down to ensure the check valve at the pump was good. 10-15 minutes went by and there was no change. Check valve at the pump seems to be good. BTW - FPR is brand new and is the correct Bosch unit.

Re-Installed the coil wire and the engine fires to life on all 6 cylinders then dies. Rinse and repeat. For the 3-5 seconds she runs, you can clearly hear that the spark/timing, wire configuration and injectors are all working correctly. They are all brand new. TPS - new and set. Throttle plate set correctly. ICV is clean, hums and has voltage. Here is the kicker, when she fires up for the 3-5, then fuel pressure drops to just a hair over 30psi. The fuel is clean and clear and fresh.

That pressure is low as the Bentley manual for the 3.5 says that running pressure should be 33+ to 39 at 2.3+ to 2.7 bar. I also checked with the gauge at the return line aft of the FPR. The gauge would not read any pressure at all with the fuel pump on or during the 3-5 seconds she runs. I can press the pressure release and fuel will pour out but there is clearly not enough pressure on the return. BTW - I checked the vacuum at the intake and she reads 13 PSI when she runs the 3-5 seconds - plenty for the FPR. The rubber hoses on the whole engine are brand new. The intake, runners and throttle were put back together and torqued properly. She is tighter than a 40 year old virgin - no leaks. I put a clamp on the return line aft of the FPR to boost pressure a bit and she ran a couple seconds longer before dying. MAF is not plugged in during these tests.

Swapped out the FPR for the old unit - same result. Keep in mind the car is tuned with ecu/chip for 24lb injectors. So, this pressure seems low as the Bentley says 40+ to 46 psi at 3 bar with standard FI and Motronic '82 through '85. Is she starving for fuel? Should I swap out the fuel pump? I have avoided throwing parts at this but it is my nature to replace everything that I know or strongly suspect to be bad. I like starting with clean slates. She wants to run and I feel I am close to the solution.

BTW - Battery is fresh. Coil is doing it's job.
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

The car has been sitting for a year. I had remembered doing a compression check early last summer but must have been thinking about one of my other rigs. Frustrated, and on a hunch, I checked compression. Pulled the main, FI relay, and all the plugs and started at #1.

#1 - 145
#2 - 145
#3 - 145
#4 - 145
#5 - 0
#6 - 0

No wonder she sounds like she is running on 4 cylinders, because she is. I do not see any antifreeze in the oil, nor an oily film in the coolant reservoir. The oil is not milky either. When she runs (rough mind you) there is no white smoke etc. Before I retrofitted the new radiator and fan setup, it did overheat on a few occasions stuck in traffic - nothing major or alarming.

Do I have a blown head gasket? I've never seen 0 pressure on a hole before. Low, but not flat zero. I almost threw a wrench through the damn windshield this afternoon. What a waste of time the past two weeks trying to get this to run.
User avatar
hornhospital
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: Silverhill, AL
Contact:

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by hornhospital »

Give at least the two flat cylinders the Marvel Mystery Oil treatment (wouldn't hurt to do all of them), leave it overnight, then test again.

My 1984 633 had really low compression on two cylinders after sitting in the impound lot for a year+ (abandoned vehicle). It took a couple of MMO treatments and then running it at idle for an hour before the rings turned loose and started sealing again.
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

I oiled them. I also bought a boroscope and a leak down tester to diagnose this further. Blown head gasket is a strong hunch in between #5 and 6. Could also be bent valves but I doubt it. The CAM timing was never messed with. CAM and rockers looked good to excellent. No weird clunks, or noises. Will report back once I have the tools and do the tests. Thanks to everyone for their insight up to this point.
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

Reporting back with Diagnosis:

Head gasket blown between #5 & #6. Leak down test helped verify this. Also have bad valve seals but thankfully no bent valves. The head is an '86 so has the bigger valve bores and parts are plenty.

So, new head gasket and valve seals. While I have the head off, it will get milled if necessary, cleaned, port and polished. New timing chain, guides and gaskets. ARP head studs etc.

On the subject of a head gasket, the bottom is the M90 with 94.5mm bore. The head is an '86. Common sense says I definitely should get the M90 HG as the M30 is a 93.5 bore and will not match. Question is about the head. I believe the OG M90 head and the later M30 heads are the same i.e. coolant and oiling passages are matched?

I wonder if it is smarter to go with a metal gasket built for a turbo motor. No more blown HG's.
Pasocb
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:14 am
Location: Paso Robles CA

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by Pasocb »

euromaniac wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:13 am Reporting back with Diagnosis:

Head gasket blown between #5 & #6. Leak down test helped verify this. Also have bad valve seals but thankfully no bent valves. The head is an '86 so has the bigger valve bores and parts are plenty.

So, new head gasket and valve seals. While I have the head off, it will get milled if necessary, cleaned, port and polished. New timing chain, guides and gaskets. ARP head studs etc.

On the subject of a head gasket, the bottom is the M90 with 94.5mm bore. The head is an '86. Common sense says I definitely should get the M90 HG as the M30 is a 93.5 bore and will not match. Question is about the head. I believe the OG M90 head and the later M30 heads are the same i.e. coolant and oiling passages are matched?

I wonder if it is smarter to go with a metal gasket built for a turbo motor. No more blown HG's.
I believe you are on the right track utilizing a leak down tester to further your diagnosis. I find your compression test readings a little curious having four cylinders with zero deviation and two with zero compression. I would expect some compression (although low) in the cylinders on either side of the blown head gasket. Luckily it sounds like the leak down test shed some light on where your problem lies.

You are fine running a B35 head on an M90 block and you definitely want to run an M90 head gasket to match the larger bore.
M90 head gaskets are getting difficult for us to source here in the US.

IIRC, head gasket sensitivity is basically attributed to poor cooling system maintenance and condition on our cars. It sounds like you intend to hedge some by going with studs instead of the factory head bolts.

I have no experience with 100% metalic head gaskets on M90/M30 engines.
1981 635 Hennarot
1980 635 Polaris (Project)
euromaniac
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:22 pm
Location: Renton

Re: Post Surgery - Car fires & sputters but will not start

Post by euromaniac »

I will put head studs in vs. bolts. It's the smart move for future scale and strength.

Cooling has been addressed. The radiator is a custom 3 row aluminum with a pusher 1300 cfm fan. It is tied into the electrics on two relays (low and high) and the sensors are calibrated at normal running and AC hot weather stuck in traffic running. The car never kicks the high relay in the summer. I may have overbuilt it - ha!
Post Reply