Front inside tire wear - toe?

gt40mk2 · Post by **gt40mk2** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:00 pm

'79 Euro 635 - suspension is stock, not lowered.

I just got back from my mechanic who pointed out the extreme (!) wear on the inside of my fronts. Tires are Yokahama's on Alpina 16's, 3.5 years old, less than 30k km / 18k miles. He suspects camber wear. On researching a bit it looks at least as likely that toe-out is causing it.

I've never had the alignment done, so just checking that this would be the obvious starting point.

Thanks!

GripGreg · Post by **GripGreg** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:36 pm

As far as you know have any bushings been replaced?
If not, jack up the car, slide underneath after making it safe & wiggle & jiggle the whole suspension.
Push & pull the top & bottom of each tire/wheel combo as well.
If I'm correct, nothing is suppose to wiggle.
Only after replacing all bushings, then have the front end alignment done & tires balanced.
Good luck,,,,Greg

gt40mk2 · Post by **gt40mk2** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:03 pm

Thanks Greg. I've owned the car for 4 years and haven't replaced any bushings. Are you saying that if there is no play, then bushings should/could be good?

GripGreg · Post by **GripGreg** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:43 pm

The big dawgs will chime in if I'm wrong; till then my answer is yes.

When I was about 22, in the late sixties, my father had a gas station &
we use to lubricate the exposed rubber bushings with a non aresol rubber lube in a squirt can,
along with the oil change. They don't do that anymore for some stupid reason.

It also use to be called a 'Slalom'; now it's an 'Autocross'!
What the heck do you cross????

I'd love to know the origin.

GazM3 · Post by **GazM3** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:24 pm

Normally toe wil effect tyre wear. Not enough toe in will cause inside tyre wear especially if there is big -ve camber. As said before if bushes are worn you get toe changes when on the move which will cause wear.

///Moe · Post by **///Moe** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:28 pm

I'd say toe-out is the most likely reason for wear on the inside, like you are describing it.
Sure, camber may be a part of it as well but it usually have to be way off to cause substantially uneven wear, while toe-out on the other hand doesn't have to be all that bad to be causing it. I work as a mechanic and althought I'm not an expert on these things I've been adjusting some cars every now and then, and just wanted to share my experience.

I recommend that you get your suspension throughly checked out before you go and get the alignment done. There is no reason doing it if there is any play, as it may cause uneven wear as well. I doubt that the camber is to blame on a stock ride height car, unless it's been damaged at some point or is sagging alot. You should keep an eye out for broken springs as well.

As long as there is no play in bushings or balljoints and rubber seems fine you don't have to replace them.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:35 am

the early (E12 style) parts are somewhat different from the later ones. If any of the steering linkage parts or the wishbone bushes wear/are damaged then the wheels will be able to go toe out without difficulty.

Just occasionally I have seen suspension bushes that look OK but are just softer than they should be; even if the static toe settings are OK the wheel moves too much in use and scrubs the tyres.

cheers

///Moe · Post by **///Moe** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:27 pm

I agree with Brucey, bushes can be bad even thought they still look good.

I recently had a customer complaining about his car going to the right when he was braking, I took his car for a spin and I actually had to steer the other way to avoid going off the road. My first thought was that there had to be something wrong with his brakes, but I couldn't see anything wrong with them. Bushings and balljoints didn't seem to be worn or damaged either and they all looked like new, some of them was even supposed to have some give in them. It was a bit of a mystery, but I soon found out that the lower control arm bushing on the right hand side had softened more than the one on the left. This caused the right wheel to get more toe-out than the left when he was braking, and the car would go to the right. We changed both bushings and the car was fine afterwards, even thought the old one's didn't look bad.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:26 pm

///Moe wrote:..... It was a bit of a mystery, but I soon found out that the lower control arm bushing on the right hand side had softened more than the one on the left....

oil leak from the timing cover? I've seen the RH engine mount go soft too.

cheers

///Moe · Post by **///Moe** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:56 am

No, the engine and undercarriage was for the most part dry.
The car didn't have many years or km's on it, so it's kind of wierd.
Could have just been something wrong with that production run of bushings maybe.

gt40mk2 · Post by **gt40mk2** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:20 pm

Thanks all - much to absorb here about suspension.

However, closer inspection has revealed that in fact it's the tires rubbing on the wheel well, presumably when they're turned in.

See the attached photos - shows wear on each front tire and corresponding wear on the wheel well.

This is mystifying. I have been running these for 3.5 years and about 30K km / 20k miles. To re-iterate:

'79 635csi Euro
Stock suspension, not lowered
16" Alpinas (x 7.5"?)
Yokahama 225/50 R16

///Moe · Post by **///Moe** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:52 pm

Unless you are steering and rubbing a LOT, I don't think that's the reason.
Looks like wear caused by toe-out in my eyes, but with close to 30k km on the tires it's probably not that bad. Most tires are starting to get "worn out" around that mileage, depending on how you drive and how well the wheel alignment is.

My 745i rub in the same area as yours with 8,5x18" 235/40-18 at the front, it's lowered thought.

gt40mk2 · Post by **gt40mk2** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:58 pm

Thanks Moe. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest just how stupid a thing may be causing this.

Say *someone* had real Alpina 16s but didn't even know if they're staggered, and if they *were* staggered, and anyone who had put them on the car and didn't know - let's just say -

If the wider ones were mistakenly run in the front . . .

GripGreg · Post by **GripGreg** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 pm

You're inventing things like wheels on the wrong corners!

Everyone is telling you it's toe-out, you implied you haven't had the car aligned!
Stop butting your head against a brick wall & telling the doctor you have a headache!
Or, your ankle hurts! Or you have a hangnail!:oops:

When these guys all give you a probable cure, take it & run to your alignment shop.
That's what I do! They've seen the pictures which helps a lot. Quit inventing unnecessary scenarios.
The wheel rubbing anything wouldn't cause that amount of wear.
I believe you would notice it before that amount of rubber is gone, but not toe-out!

If you won't believe these geniuses, why post here at all?
Oh BTW, did your scenario actually happen? Or is it hypothetical?

gt40mk2 · Post by **gt40mk2** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:34 am

I think it may have happened. I just wasn't able to check right away - I was at work and my garage is not close to home. I do not know, but I suspect, that my rims are staggered. (My stupid ignorance that I don't know.)

I was asking - if they are, and they were mounted front to back, could this cause this kind of wear on turning. Seems to me it could.

When I am next at the car I'll put them back on and see if they rub like that when turned. If not, I'll pursue the possibility of misalignment.

Thank you.

GazM3 · Post by **GazM3** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:59 am

Is it on both sides.
It shouldn't be rubbing like that. Maybe if it's one side only they haven't got the steering box centred. Id still check the alignment in reference to toe.

gt40mk2 · Post by **gt40mk2** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:03 am

Yes - both sides. Almost identical wear on the tire and well on each side, as the pix show.

Brucey · Post by **Brucey** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:47 am

I've seen 235mm tyres on ET15 wheels rub identically in the arches on an E12 based E24. In the absence of other info I'd consider that 'normal'.

The toe wear of course isn't...

cheers

gt40mk2 · Post by **gt40mk2** » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:29 pm

Thank you!